Comments for Beginning of Wisdom http://anewisdom.wordpress.com Proverbs from the Hebrew Bible and the ancient Near East Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:13:38 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 Comment on Good help is hard to find! (Proverbs 10:26) by JPvdGiessen http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/04/11/good-help-is-hard-to-find-proverbs-1026/#comment-3137 JPvdGiessen Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:13:38 +0000 http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/04/11/good-help-is-hard-to-find-proverbs-1026/#comment-3137 It would be nice if you continued this series of interesting articles It would be nice if you continued this series of interesting articles

]]> Comment on Regard for one’s parents (Proverbs 28:24) by Nony http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/01/18/regard-for-ones-parents-proverbs-2824/#comment-18 Nony Thu, 18 Jan 2007 19:11:13 +0000 http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/01/18/regard-for-ones-parents-proverbs-2824/#comment-18 Another lurker who is enjoying your series. Thank you, may there be many more. And yes to grey-haired wisdom. Another lurker who is enjoying your series. Thank you, may there be many more. And yes to grey-haired wisdom.

]]> Comment on Thorns and snares (Proverbs 22:5) by Stephen L. Cook http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/01/15/thorns-and-snares-proverbs-225/#comment-17 Stephen L. Cook Wed, 17 Jan 2007 00:54:53 +0000 http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/01/15/thorns-and-snares-proverbs-225/#comment-17 Very helpful. Thanks! ---SLC Very helpful. Thanks! —SLC

]]> Comment on Thorns and snares (Proverbs 22:5) by Jim http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/01/15/thorns-and-snares-proverbs-225/#comment-16 Jim Mon, 15 Jan 2007 16:20:54 +0000 http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/01/15/thorns-and-snares-proverbs-225/#comment-16 I second Stephen's comment. What a great series. A great treat. Thanks for it. I second Stephen’s comment. What a great series. A great treat. Thanks for it.

]]> Comment on Thorns and snares (Proverbs 22:5) by jac/cdc http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/01/15/thorns-and-snares-proverbs-225/#comment-15 jac/cdc Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:49:04 +0000 http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/01/15/thorns-and-snares-proverbs-225/#comment-15 I'm glad you are enjoying the blog. Colin and I have enjoyed working through some of these proverbs. Your question is a good one and not easily answered. I've attempted to address this issue as far as I could from a linguistic (semantic) perspective in my essay in the Fox Festschrift <i>Seeking Out the Wisdom of the Ancients</i> (www.eisenbrauns.com/wconnect/wc.dll?ebGate~EIS~~I~TROSEEKIN). Linguists have illustrated the problem as one of meaning: how does a statement like "birds fly" mean anything (i.e., under what circumstances is it true) since we know that certain birds do not fly. One approach to generic statements like this is the "inductivist" one, which argues that once their are enough instantiations of a situation we may make such generic statements. Another is the "rules-and-regulations" theory, which argues that these statements do not directly describe events but some rule or regulation about the "world." Finally, a third approach is the "alternative-based" theory, which argues that such statements must be evaluated on the basis of alternatives. Thus, "birds fly" is true because "fly" is seen as more "prototypical" of birds than other, alternative means of locomotion, such as walk, hop, run. I'm not sure that any of these three approaches are universally successful. I'm inclined, for instance, to gravitate toward the rules-and-regulations approach in describing this proverb, because I understand the sages as describing the "structure" of the world. Of course Job and Qoheleth both rail against this view as somewhat nieve, but like the Psalmists I think the sages as often base their advice on what the world's structure <i>should be</i> as what it actually <i>is</i>. Although this may appear to dodge the question, I think it points to the power of the sayings of the sages as "world making," just as the Psalms are often described as being (e.g., Brueggemann). Proverbs, like Psalms, sometimes present the world with all its injustices but other times portray the world as it should be. In so doing they confront and challenge our own (often cynical and faithless) conception of God's justice in the world. I’m glad you are enjoying the blog. Colin and I have enjoyed working through some of these proverbs. Your question is a good one and not easily answered. I’ve attempted to address this issue as far as I could from a linguistic (semantic) perspective in my essay in the Fox Festschrift Seeking Out the Wisdom of the Ancients (www.eisenbrauns.com/wconnect/wc.dll?ebGate~EIS~~I~TROSEEKIN). Linguists have illustrated the problem as one of meaning: how does a statement like “birds fly” mean anything (i.e., under what circumstances is it true) since we know that certain birds do not fly. One approach to generic statements like this is the “inductivist” one, which argues that once their are enough instantiations of a situation we may make such generic statements. Another is the “rules-and-regulations” theory, which argues that these statements do not directly describe events but some rule or regulation about the “world.” Finally, a third approach is the “alternative-based” theory, which argues that such statements must be evaluated on the basis of alternatives. Thus, “birds fly” is true because “fly” is seen as more “prototypical” of birds than other, alternative means of locomotion, such as walk, hop, run. I’m not sure that any of these three approaches are universally successful. I’m inclined, for instance, to gravitate toward the rules-and-regulations approach in describing this proverb, because I understand the sages as describing the “structure” of the world. Of course Job and Qoheleth both rail against this view as somewhat nieve, but like the Psalmists I think the sages as often base their advice on what the world’s structure should be as what it actually is. Although this may appear to dodge the question, I think it points to the power of the sayings of the sages as “world making,” just as the Psalms are often described as being (e.g., Brueggemann). Proverbs, like Psalms, sometimes present the world with all its injustices but other times portray the world as it should be. In so doing they confront and challenge our own (often cynical and faithless) conception of God’s justice in the world.

]]> Comment on Thorns and snares (Proverbs 22:5) by Stephen L. Cook http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/01/15/thorns-and-snares-proverbs-225/#comment-14 Stephen L. Cook Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:52:44 +0000 http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/01/15/thorns-and-snares-proverbs-225/#comment-14 I am really enjoying your series. Thanks for all the hard work! I would be very interested in any reflections on the "status" of a proverb such as this. Crenshaw calls it a big lie, but that won't do, will it? It clearly doesn't work as a universal "law of nature." How do we best describe its quality of truth?? Peace, ---Stephen Cook I am really enjoying your series. Thanks for all the hard work! I would be very interested in any reflections on the “status” of a proverb such as this. Crenshaw calls it a big lie, but that won’t do, will it? It clearly doesn’t work as a universal “law of nature.” How do we best describe its quality of truth?? Peace, —Stephen Cook

]]> Comment on The power of jealousy by jac/cdc http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/the-power-of-jealousy/#comment-13 jac/cdc Tue, 09 Jan 2007 21:56:45 +0000 http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/the-power-of-jealousy/#comment-13 Robert, Let me state up front that we're not interested in harmonizing everything the Bible says about jealousy, wrath, and anger. At the most we take into account other wisdom writings in clarifying particular proverbs and their vocabulary. That said, nothing positive is said about "jealousy" in Proverbs. My description of 6:34 as being written "admonishingly" is because it is directed at the young man who may be tempted to commit adultery, admonishing him not to be at the receiving end of a husband's jealousy. I says nothing either way about whether the husband should be jealous. The other terms in this proverb, "cruelty," "wrath," and "anger" are also never positively spoken of in Proverbs. See e.g., 19:19 and 22:24. At the most they are neutral terms in some instances, negative traits in others. As for Proverbs 14:30, now you are splitting hairs: if jealousy causes rottenness to the bones then I think we can safely say that rottenness of the bones "characterizes jealousy." We need not parse words so closely on a blog; I already have to do that all day at work! Robert,
Let me state up front that we’re not interested in harmonizing everything the Bible says about jealousy, wrath, and anger. At the most we take into account other wisdom writings in clarifying particular proverbs and their vocabulary.

That said, nothing positive is said about “jealousy” in Proverbs. My description of 6:34 as being written “admonishingly” is because it is directed at the young man who may be tempted to commit adultery, admonishing him not to be at the receiving end of a husband’s jealousy. I says nothing either way about whether the husband should be jealous.

The other terms in this proverb, “cruelty,” “wrath,” and “anger” are also never positively spoken of in Proverbs. See e.g., 19:19 and 22:24. At the most they are neutral terms in some instances, negative traits in others.

As for Proverbs 14:30, now you are splitting hairs: if jealousy causes rottenness to the bones then I think we can safely say that rottenness of the bones “characterizes jealousy.” We need not parse words so closely on a blog; I already have to do that all day at work!

]]> Comment on The power of jealousy by Robert Esland http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/the-power-of-jealousy/#comment-12 Robert Esland Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:40:02 +0000 http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/the-power-of-jealousy/#comment-12 Hi, Your statement that 'one is left to ponder why jealousy is so much worse than wrath or anger' arises, I think, from a notion that wrath and anger are bad. Where does this notion originate? I cannot find it mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Sure, wrongly directing one's anger is bad. And acting out of wrath is not the way for humans. But surely that doesn't mean that anger and wrath are intrinsically bad. Likewise, jealously in itself is not bad either. After all, how could God be a jealous God if jealousy were bad? It is written in Exodus 34:14 that Jealous is even one of God's attributes. The proverb indicates that wrath and anger are powerful forces, but that jealousy is even more powerful. The proverb, at least to me, does not make a value judgment on whether jealousy is bad ('worse than...'). Regarding the other occurrence you mention of jealousy, in Proverbs 6:34, by writing that said Proverb 'admonishingly describes...' you again make a value judgment, this time about the husband's jealousy. Jealousy arouses a husband's fury (note it doesn't say a man's fury), why do you imply that is bad? Furthermore, Proverbs 14:30 does neither state nor imply that rottenness of the bones 'characterizes jealousy'; the Proverb states that jealousy causes rottenness of the bones. These are different statements. It is interesting to do a search on the phrase 'anger of the Lord' or the 'wrath of the Lord' and see how many times these occur. Moreover, God is a jealous God; He is jealous for Zion and jealous for Jerusalem and Elijah is jealous for God. I would not call anger or wrath or jealousy bad. I do, however, acknowledge that they do not always conform to contemporary human emotions. Finally, I do agree with your conclusion that jealousy is destructive. But I think that is precisely the objective of jealousy rather than a negative attribute of it. Robert Hi,

Your statement that ‘one is left to ponder why jealousy is so much worse than wrath or anger’ arises, I think, from a notion that wrath and anger are bad. Where does this notion originate? I cannot find it mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Sure, wrongly directing one’s anger is bad. And acting out of wrath is not the way for humans. But surely that doesn’t mean that anger and wrath are intrinsically bad. Likewise, jealously in itself is not bad either. After all, how could God be a jealous God if jealousy were bad? It is written in Exodus 34:14 that Jealous is even one of God’s attributes.

The proverb indicates that wrath and anger are powerful forces, but that jealousy is even more powerful. The proverb, at least to me, does not make a value judgment on whether jealousy is bad (‘worse than…’).

Regarding the other occurrence you mention of jealousy, in Proverbs 6:34, by writing that said Proverb ‘admonishingly describes…’ you again make a value judgment, this time about the husband’s jealousy. Jealousy arouses a husband’s fury (note it doesn’t say a man’s fury), why do you imply that is bad?

Furthermore, Proverbs 14:30 does neither state nor imply that rottenness of the bones ‘characterizes jealousy’; the Proverb states that jealousy causes rottenness of the bones. These are different statements.

It is interesting to do a search on the phrase ‘anger of the Lord’ or the ‘wrath of the Lord’ and see how many times these occur. Moreover, God is a jealous God; He is jealous for Zion and jealous for Jerusalem and Elijah is jealous for God. I would not call anger or wrath or jealousy bad. I do, however, acknowledge that they do not always conform to contemporary human emotions.

Finally, I do agree with your conclusion that jealousy is destructive. But I think that is precisely the objective of jealousy rather than a negative attribute of it.

Robert

]]> Comment on About by Dad & Mom http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/about/#comment-10 Dad & Mom Sat, 06 Jan 2007 03:47:04 +0000 #comment-10 Just arrived in Singapore early this morning (12:45am)and after a long winter's (?) nap was able to finally log on to email and the internet. Congrats on your blogsite. Haven't read all your posts yet, but we're impressed! Ah, wisdom, thou art a jewel (or was that about something else?!) d&m Just arrived in Singapore early this morning (12:45am)and after a long winter’s (?) nap was able to finally log on to email and the internet. Congrats on your blogsite. Haven’t read all your posts yet, but we’re impressed! Ah, wisdom, thou art a jewel (or was that about something else?!)
d&m

]]> Comment on The Beginning of Beginning of Wisdom by jac/cdc http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2006/12/23/the-beginning-of-beginning-of-wisdom/#comment-9 jac/cdc Wed, 03 Jan 2007 22:30:41 +0000 http://anewisdom.wordpress.com/2006/12/23/the-beginning-of-beginning-of-wisdom/#comment-9 Well it appears to me that your complaint is against the proverb, not against my rendering of it. My choice of "get" is dictated merely by wanting to use a more colloquial form of "acquire," as in when my wife tells me to "get a loaf of bread" when I am out at the store. Honestly, I don't see your point in distinguishing "get" and "acquire." Any "strong sense of direction" in the use of "get" comes from the fact that it is an imperative in both Hebrew and English. Thanks for your comments though. Well it appears to me that your complaint is against the proverb, not against my rendering of it. My choice of “get” is dictated merely by wanting to use a more colloquial form of “acquire,” as in when my wife tells me to “get a loaf of bread” when I am out at the store. Honestly, I don’t see your point in distinguishing “get” and “acquire.” Any “strong sense of direction” in the use of “get” comes from the fact that it is an imperative in both Hebrew and English. Thanks for your comments though.

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